I added CarPlay to my R1T

[yizzung]

You are looking at it wrong.

Yes, there is a chunk of the market that does not want CarPlay/Android Auto at all. And Tesla has established themselves as a gorilla in that chunk of the market. Plus this will be a very small slice of the market because you can just not use it.

There is another chunk of the market that will absolutely require CarPlay/Android Auto. They will not consider Teslas. This is the camp I am in. I want to try a pure electric manufacturer, I don’t really want to by an eTron or a Ford electric. But I will be forced to do that if Rivian is stubborn/stupid.

And then there are people who don’t view it as a requirement but would prefer to have it. This will by far be the biggest chunk of the market, probably around 60% - 70%. These folks are going to put a Lightning and an R1T and a CyberTruck side by side and consider the features and pricing. And if Rivian concedes a feature to the competition, they are starting at a disadvantage in that exercise. And Tesla is already well ahead of them because they have an established name and service centers.

So can Rivian survive like this? Of course they can. But they have made it much harder on themselves, and they will grow more slowly. And because it will take millions of vehicles on the road before this becomes a significant revenue stream, the $90k sale to me that they will lose probably exceeds the revenue they would get from that stream in the first few years.

No. We’re just looking at it differently. I’m looking at it like a person who has worked in Silicon Valley for 25 years, including stints at 2 of the biggest household brands in tech. You are looking at it as a consumer who really really wants something.

By your logic, Apple computer should have abandoned its own OS years ago and focused on Microsoft Windows clones, which is what “the market” wanted. I guess they should also put Android on their phones while they’re at it because of all the Android users who stubbornly refuse to buy iPhones…

You are discounting or outright ignoring the value that can be created via vertical integration under the false assumption that some indeterminate amount of market share is always preferred to profit and/or differentiation achievable through vertical integration. (Tesla disagrees with you.)

Lastly you undermine your entire argument and help prove my point by suggesting that Rivian is going to “force you” to buy a car without it. LOL. That’s exactly what they are attempting to do, just like Apple, just like Tesla. If you want to drive a Chevy with AA/CP, they are willing to let you.

It doesn’t mean that they will be successful. I’m not smart enough to know if the bet will pay off or if Rivian will remain solvent in the long run. I just recognize the game they are playing and understand very clearly that they aren’t as stupid as you suggest. Or that they are only at least as stupid as Apple or Tesla, which is not the worst company to keep.

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[lefkonj]

I just don't get the 'Forfeit revenue' thing as a reason to not have CarPlay/AA. What money are car manufacturers making by owning the infotainment? I do understand the benefits to the ecosystem if the navigation of the Rivian/Tesla/Lucid/etc knows you are heading for a charge and preps the battery system. In order to do that they apps on the phones would have to know that and talk to the vehicles, not sure how tough that is to accomplish. I really like CarPlay but I lived without it for decades, so willing to try in my Rivian.

 

[AdamUCF]

I just don't get the 'Forfeit revenue' thing as a reason to not have CarPlay/AA. What money are car manufacturers making by owning the infotainment? I do understand the benefits to the ecosystem if the navigation of the Rivian/Tesla/Lucid/etc knows you are heading for a charge and preps the battery system. In order to do that they apps on the phones would have to know that and talk to the vehicles, not sure how tough that is to accomplish. I really like CarPlay but I lived without it for decades, so willing to try in my Rivian.

No reason they can't do this. I don't know if Carplay feeds charger destination back to the car but cars can feed state of charge to Carplay.

EV routing comes to Apple Maps and CarPlay for Ford Mach-E drivers with iOS 15.4 - 9to5Mac

 

[yizzung]

I just don't get the 'Forfeit revenue' thing as a reason to not have CarPlay/AA. What money are car manufacturers making by owning the infotainment? I do understand the benefits to the ecosystem if the navigation of the Rivian/Tesla/Lucid/etc knows you are heading for a charge and preps the battery system. In order to do that they apps on the phones would have to know that and talk to the vehicles, not sure how tough that is to accomplish. I really like CarPlay but I lived without it for decades, so willing to try in my Rivian.

The economics are probably too boring for this forum but at the most basic level, think of every machine in two parts: the dumb physical hardware and the operating system. The machine can be a phone, a TV, a smart speaker, or an EV. The company that controls the OS controls the bulk of the revenue stream because it's a conduit for user interaction, which can include buying more things via that interface.

Google wants to be on your TV because they want to see what you do, what you like, what you want more of... And then they want a cut for every one of those additional things that you end up buying. That's their whole model. It's a toll booth. They also want to be on your phone. And your smart speaker. And your car.

Apple charges as much as a 30% fee on apps that sell things through their app store ecosystem. Go try to buy an Audible (aka Amazon) e-book on Apple. Can't do it because Amazon simply refuses to give up 30% of that revenue to Apple. They instead opt for a worse customer experience and force its users to purchase via a web browser rather than natively on IOS.

Spotify has also been fighting with Apple and trying to get the DOJ involved. (How do you think they like the idea of giving a cut of every IOS sale to Apple, who then turns around and uses that income to encourage people to buy Apple Music instead of Spotify?) These tolls are everywhere. On every single device.

Owning "the driver" means the automaker gets to erect toll booths and not forfeit them to Apple/Google. There are plenty of other reasons outside of this potential revenue stream: Google already owns a $30B autonomous car company, Apple rumored to soon get into the car business, Rivian wanting to own the design of the user experience rather than outsourcing it, etc.

Rivian has already chosen to let one fox in the henhouse (Alexa) but seems to be calculating that there's lower risk given their co-investment and the fact that (unlike Google and Apple) Amazon isn't planning to bring a car to market (unless Amazon ends up owning Rivian someday).

 

[Arky]

No they don't. They just don't want to forfeit future digital revenue streams to Google and Apple in the same way that every phone manufacturer, every TV manufacturer, and nearly every car manufacturer have done over the last decade. But congrats on the setup. Looks neat.

As the user of the product I don't really care about their revenue stream, especially when features are deliberately held back so they can try to pull more money out of me. I fully understand their motivation for doing it, I just think it makes a worse product. If they're going to vacuum up my personal data I at least want decent maps and phone integration out of the deal. Rivian's move is just trading one silicon valley giant for another less functional one.

On balance it's still a cool vehicle at a solid (pre-Mar) price so I plan to follow through but it does sour the experience somewhat that my friend's much cheaper Crosstrek can talk to their phone much better than something as advanced as the R1.

 

[yizzung]

As the user of the product I don't really care about their revenue stream, especially when features are deliberately held back so they can try to pull more money out of me. I fully understand their motivation for doing it, I just think it makes a worse product. If they're going to vacuum up my personal data I at least want decent maps and phone integration out of the deal. Rivian's move is just trading one silicon valley giant for another less functional one.

On balance it's still a cool vehicle at a solid (pre-Mar) price so I plan to follow through but it does sour the experience somewhat that my friend's much cheaper Crosstrek can talk to their phone much better than something as advanced as the R1.

I covered this above. See Audible app on IOS. It is 100% a worse user experience that you user can't make an in-app purchase, but Amazon actively chooses to tell (some) users to go jump in a lake because they refuse to pay Apple's toll. You don't have to convince me that Rivian choosing to avoid AA/CP integration might be a worse user experience initially. I'm just shedding some light on why they are disincentivized to do it.

 

[lefkonj]

I get the app fee charges from Apple, trust me on that one. As well as the Google/Amazon data sniffing joy, but Rivian owning their own infotainment vs letting Apple have CarPlay are two completely different things.

Allowing CarPlay to do its thing, with a Rivian App vs not at all won't cost Rivian a nickel in monthly revenue just the development and maintenance costs associated with the apps. The DOJ and Europeans are already all over Apple for the required App Store purchases so that will likely change.

I have had ZERO flight time with the Rivian infotainment but as someone who doesn't touch for a second the Audi/VW systems from day one of owning it, 4 cars in, I would love CarPlay but will see what living without it is like.

 

[swhme]

No. We’re just looking at it differently. I’m looking at it like a person who has worked in Silicon Valley for 25 years, including stints at 2 of the biggest household brands in tech. You are looking at it as a consumer who really really wants something.

By your logic, Apple computer should have abandoned its own OS years ago and focused on Microsoft Windows clones, which is what “the market” wanted. I guess they should also put Android on their phones while they’re at it because of all the Android users who stubbornly refuse to buy iPhones…

You are discounting or outright ignoring the value that can be created via vertical integration under the false assumption that some indeterminate amount of market share is always preferred to profit and/or differentiation achievable through vertical integration. (Tesla disagrees with you.)

Lastly you undermine your entire argument and help prove my point by suggesting that Rivian is going to “force you” to buy a car without it. LOL. That’s exactly what they are attempting to do, just like Apple, just like Tesla. If you want to drive a Chevy with AA/CP, they are willing to let you.

It doesn’t mean that they will be successful. I’m not smart enough to know if the bet will pay off or if Rivian will remain solvent in the long run. I just recognize the game they are playing and understand very clearly that they aren’t as stupid as you suggest. Or that they are only at least as stupid as Apple or Tesla, which is not the worst company to keep.

I call malarkey. Also done 20+ years between big tech and startups.

The Android/Windows iOS/MacOS argument makes no sense. Apple created the walled garden to be able to offer a consistent user experience as an enabling factor to make a ton of money on App sales. Unless Rivian is angling to create an App Store (doubtful), this isn’t a path to riches for them, and enabling third party apps to run in a sandboxed CarPlay environment shouldn’t present any performance or security concerns to the rest of the vehicle

I have no idea what the economics of CarPlay are like. Does Apple charge manufacturers to add it to vehicles? I don’t know, but I doubt it. I think that, more likely, it’s one of two things:
- it’s technically challenging based on how the infotainment system is architected and it hasn’t made it to the top of the team’s list
Or
- there’s some political pressure from Amazon not to include it

 

[Acoustic71]

- there’s some political pressure from Amazon not to include it

"We have a winner!"

 

[astonius]

Frankly a bit tired of the “Amazon is preventing it!” argument with zero evidence to support it. Amazon’s stake in the company is limited. Amazon does not create a competing product for CarPlay. Amazon puts their apps on CarPlay.

You know what Amazon does offer? A streaming music service, and a pretty decent one. And what streaming music service does Rivian provide in their infotainment? Spotify. A direct competitor to Amazon Music. They don’t even offer Amazon Music as an option. I’d put money on this not being an Amazon decision.

 

[Acoustic71]

You may be correct, but I have rubbed elbows with the Jeff Bezos of the tech world enough to know that what they say publicly and what the do privately can be unrecognizable at times. I have no idea what made Rivian do what they did, but someone does. It just ain't me.

And who really knows enough not to speculate without evidence? You are knowledgable about what is or isn't there, as you are the proud owner of an R1T. I haven't even seen CarPlay since I sold my 2018 XC90 T8 Hybrid in anticipation of getting an R1T, so I no longer know what it does or does not contain. Yeah, that was bit naive about how sO---On I would get my R1T, but that's what I did.

Didn't mean to offend. Just having some fun while I wait the good wait.

 

[astonius]

Didn't mean to offend. Just having some fun while I wait the good wait.

I’m sorry, didn’t mean to sound offended or single you out. This has just been a common refrain for a while now from many which I find dubious.

 

[Acoustic71]

It’s all good, particularly since you were kind enough to help everyone here with questions we all have. That’s the biggest problem we all share with the written word: it’s really hard to convey humor, seriousness, pissed off, or any other emotion without silly emoticons.

 

[echerod]

I’m OK with Rivian foregoing AA and CarPlay as long as they open up their ecosystem to allow all kinds of apps beyond just Spotify and a couple others. Users want access to apps they know and trust, such as Waze, ABRP, etc. The issue might be getting developers to create apps for a new ecosystem, but perhaps that’s where having Amazon as a partner could be beneficial.

 

[Ralph]

...snip

The key question is what to they gain by fencing out CarPlay and Android Auto? Have those as an option doesn't mean you have to use either of them if you are a purist.

This is an excellent question. Could the answer be something like this?

A quick recap for background:

Bezos and Amazon are famous for planning long term; e.g. for many years re-investing at the expense of "profitability" that Wall Street was looking for. Now they own somewhere around 20% of Rivian. And they have 100k vans currently on order. I believe their cloud business accounts for somewhere around 15% of their revenue.

They need to continue to grow and may not want to be deeply integrate and pay tech rival Apple and potential EV mfg for CarPlay. Or Google for all the mapping/routing for their services.

Perhaps Amazon will use those 100,000 vans (and more later) and the satellites launched from their space company to do what even Google can't - map every street and address they deliver to, not just every so often, but virtually all the time.

That of course is not likely to help me navigate my R1T anytime soon. Assuming it is delivered "soon".

Just a thought about what their long term ideas might include.....

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