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Wall charger installation at home - suggestions and recommendations? ⚡️⚡️

CommodoreAmiga

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Please cite your source for this, I’ve never seen THHN listed for over 75A at any temp rating.
Ah, yes, my eyes went to the wrong line. 6AWG THHN copper is rated for 75A at 90 degrees C.

Still plenty for a 60A breaker, which was the point I was making to OP.

And anything on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt and people should verify and be comfortable before relying on any information, regardless of the topic.

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ajdelange

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The No. 6 THHN is derated to keep heat down under the full 48amp EVSE load, but using a 60amp breaker will allow that circuit to run up to 60amps if things go sideways and could heat up to an unacceptable level.
An "intermittent" load is defined as one that stays connected continuously for 3 hours or less, NEC defines EVSE to be a continuous (more than 3 hr) load whether it is on for less than 3 hours or not (and, of course, at Level 1 or 2 it very will may be on for more than 3 hours). Circuits serving continuous loads must be derated to 80% of the values given in the NEC ampacity tables. The idea is that the heat dissipated in time t is poportional to the integral of i^2*t and that, therfore,, heat can build up over time.

Breakers are not as precise as most people think. They will trip for going overcurrent, but this can take much longer than you'd expect.
The breakers you most likely have in your panels have two tripping mechanisms: thermal and magnetic. The thermal trip mechanism will allow slight overcurrent for a long time but will trip faster as the current increases. Look at the breaker part number. You can then look up the range of trip times for a given level of overload on graphs published by the manufacturer. As you probably expect the breaker has a wire which is heated by the current. Heat can only escape at a limited rate so if there is enough i^2 for a long enough time that the wire gets hot enough it will deform a bimetal strip and releast the latch.

The other mechanism us magnetic. It is designed to catch large over currents (such as a short or ground fault) very quickly, The load current flows through a coil adjacent to a piece of magnetic material. If the field from the coil is strong enough it attracts the armature thus releasing the latch.

THHN has 90C insulation, and you can use the 90C column as the starting point to derate for ambient temperature or multiple circuits in the same conduit. But breaker terminals are generally only 75C. If you are not running multiple circuits in your conduit (and if you don't have to de-rate for ambient temperatures), you should just go straight to the 75C column when sizing your wire (unless you're working with Romex or UF, both of which require use of the 60C column).
Code requires that conductors must be required for the lesser of the insulation temperature or terminal temperature rating. THHN may be rated to 90 °C but if used with a breaker with terminals rated 75 °C you must use the 75 ° ratng even though the insulation is 90 °C insulation. There are exceptions (the infamous NM-B) which must be sized for 60°C even though its insulation is 90 °C insulation,

Consideration must be given to the number of wires in the conduit and the conduit size. There are tables listing the maximum fills for each standard size. The tables we usually see, like the one in No. 10, are for up to 3 current carrying conductors in a conduit or cable. Note that the hots and neutral are all current carrying conductors. The grounding conductor isn't.


Ah, yes, my eyes went to the wrong line. 6AWG THHN copper is rated for 75A at 90 degrees C.
Yes it is but you may not use that rating unless the terminals on the breaker AND in the EVSE are both rated for 90 °C which they aren't (not sure about the EVSE and you can buy 90°C breakers but you aren't likely to find them in a residential setting), You must use the 75 ° rating for No. 6 which is 65A and clearly adequate for a 60 A breaker
 
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Tommy

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Does it help get the electrons in there sooner?
Ha. Actually considering hardwire connection for reliability. My Wifi is spotty in the garage and 100ft ethernet cable is cheaper than another WiFi repeater or mesh node. As long as I will be pulling cable, I figure this may be the way to go.

My only concern is that since there are no instructions for setting up or using the ethernet port on the Rivian Wall Charger, it may not be designed for this purpose or have been disabled? Don't know.
 

NooterIA

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So lots of good info here, but I'm struggling to understand what is the safest bet. I've only got about a 30' run from my panel to where the charger will be (wire will run through attic and down inside the garage wall). I'm planning on using 6/2 NM-B with a 60A square D breaker along with hard wiring it in. I've bounced this off a couple of buddies who are electricians and have wired for EV's and they say that's all ya need is the 6/2 NM-B. Just passing along what I've heard..
 

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ajdelange

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So lots of good info here, but I'm struggling to understand what is the safest bet.
The safest bet is 6/2 or 6/3 THHN tray cable or sepaate 6 AWG THHN coductors in conduit or 6 AWG MC. That i surely electrically safe and meets NEC and, therfore, probably your local code too.

I'm planning on using 6/2 NM-B with a 60A square D breaker along with hard wiring it in. I've bounced this off a couple of buddies who are electricians and have wired for EV's and they say that's all ya need is the 6/2 NM-B. Just passing along what I've heard..
As has been discussed here at great, great length you may not use NM-B and be compliant with NEC. Some chose to ignore this fact and use it anyway because the conductors in NM-B have 90 ° insulation but, unless your local code gives you a waiver against the NEC prohibition you are at risk that a local inspector will fail your installation or that an insurance company may deny a fire claim if they find NM-B in your hook-up.

I would ask one of your electrician buddies why he thinks NM-B is OK when current NEC clearly says it isn't. If he says "Well that's because that requirement is in NEC 2020 and the county is still on NEC 2017 and 2017 says it's OK." then it's OK. Note: I'm not saying that 2017 does - I haven't checked. It probably does not. If he cannot give a satisfactory answer or doesn't know what you are talking about get another electrician.
 

NooterIA

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@ajdelange - Thanks man, I'm gonna run this by them in addition to checking my county codes. I'm a DIY type of person but I don't wanna screw this up.
 

ajdelange

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@ajdelange - Thanks man, I'm gonna run this by them in addition to checking my county codes. I'm a DIY type of person but I don't wanna screw this up.
Being a DIY puts you at additional risk. If an electrician screws it up you could ultimately sue him. If you DIY there is no one.

When checking with the county see if pulling an additional circuit requires a permit and inspection (it does where I live). If it does be sure to pull the permit and call for the inspection. Do that and you are covered. The worst that can happen is that the inspector says NM-B is a no-no and make you replace it with the proper wire after which he will presumably pass it. This way you have the permit and the inspection on record and the insurance company has no grounds for claim denial.
 

NooterIA

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@ajdelange -- I'm just doing some reading regarding codes and safety, etc. Curious what you'd say if a guy found some 4/3 NM-B since it meets the 90c and supports the 70A where as the 6/3 supports up to 55A. ?? Better? Still a violation?
 

ajdelange

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@ajdelange -- I'm just doing some reading regarding codes and safety, etc. Curious what you'd say if a guy found some 4/3 NM-B since it meets the 90c and supports the 70A where as the 6/3 supports up to 55A. ?? Better? Still a violation?
Not that I can see.

The things I'd check with No. 4 are:
1)Is no 4 NB-B more expensive that No. 6 THHN?
2)It's going to be harder to pull and wire
3)The EVSE lugs may not be big enough to accept No. 4
 

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mini2nut

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My 220v charging solution for our Tesla cost around $10.

We have an unused 30a 220v dryer outlet in our garage.

I simply removed the incompatible 220v outlet and installed the correct one for around $10.

We charge overnight at home on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday. The Model Y sees a daily round trip of 65 miles, 5-days a week plus any local weekend driving.



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NooterIA

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F it, I'm calling an actual electrician out. :clap:

Edit: I paid an electrician to come out to my place. In a nutshell, I’m doing the wiring myself (saving $2500) with 6/2 NM-B and getting a homeowner permit from the city that will include an inspection. His quote included exactly the same wire and 60A breaker and he was nice enough to inform me about the DIY permit.
 
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ajdelange

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We have an unused 220v 30 amp dryer outlet in our garage.

I simply removed the incompatible 220v outlet and installed the correct one for around $10.
Not clear on what you did. You show pictures of 14-50R receptacles which would NOT be proper replacement on a 30A circuit but you do show the 14-30P adapter which would be OK if you had installed a 14-30R receptacle.

Assuming you replaced the 240V outlet with the proper 14-30R you wouldn't be able to charge your R1 with its own portable EVSE because they don't make a 14-30 adapter but you could use your Tesla UMC to charge a Rivian using a Tesla Tap.
 
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mini2nut

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Revised post to show the correct NEMA 14-30R receptacle that I installed.
 
 




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