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Attesan997

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It would be nice if a future OTA update could provide a breakdown of consumption, such as how much was spent on HVAC vs propulsion vs accessories.
I know it will take some time to ramp up but there's so much low hanging fruit Rivian could implement in software.
 

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What makes you think EA is price gouging?
So in VA residential rates are $0.12/kWh. EA rates are $0.43/kWh or as a member $.31/kWh. I know that's not apples to apples as EA does not pay residential rates, but at over 3x residential rates, that's a little steep.

For ICE, average gas station owner gross is $0.10-0.15/gal of gas sold....that's before expenses. Yet right now everyone is screaming gas stations are gouging on prices...too funny.

Let's not forget how EA started and who owns them - VW due to the diesel scandal. And in a few years their obligation under court agreement goes away...

Dzm
 
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timesinks

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So in VA residential rates are $0.12/kWh. EA rates are $0.43/kWh or as a member $.31/kWh. I know that's not apples to apples as EA does not pay residential rates, but at over 3x residential rates, that's a little steep.

For ICE, average gas station owner gross is $0.10-0.15/gal of gas sold....that's before expenses. Yet right now everyone is screaming gas stations are gouging on prices...too funny.

Let's not forget how EA started and who owns them - VW due to the diesel scandal. And in a few years their obligation under court agreement goes away...

Dzm
It's not apples to apples because they need to amortize the 6-figure cost of the charger and its installation by marking up a 15-cent product. And that's before overhead and actual profits. Road trips aren't necessarily cheaper, but since you get most of your energy at home when you're vehicle isn't in use, most drivers will still come out well ahead -- especially if gas prices keep moving up.
 

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So in VA residential rates are $0.12/kWh. EA rates are $0.43/kWh or as a member $.31/kWh. I know that's not apples to apples as EA does not pay residential rates, but at over 3x residential rates, that's a little steep.

For ICE, average gas station owner gross is $0.10-0.15/gal of gas sold....that's before expenses. Yet right now everyone is screaming gas stations are gouging on prices...too funny.

Let's not forget how EA started and who owns them - VW due to the diesel scandal. And in a few years their obligation under court agreement goes away...

Dzm
Right. So people just assume EA is trying to make a bunch of money because they think EA pays a similar electrical rate as a residential customer. In many areas of the Country they're subject to large demand fees.

Here's what I found for an example in VA. The demand fees in VA are actually fairly reasonable. In some areas a 1,000kw demand fee, which in some cases only needs to happen once for the fee to apply, can be several thousand dollars.


https://www.appalachianpower.com/li...tialandNon-ResidentialCharges-March1-2022.pdf

https://www.appalachianpower.com/li...MASTER-Standard-March1-2022-RPS-RAC-clean.pdf

So if you look at the medium grade service the base rate per kwh ends up being like $0.08938. Sounds great, yeah?! But in addition to that they have a $/kw fee. It looks like the nominal fee is $4.59/kw. If a Taycan rolls up as the first vehicle for the month and pulls 270kw, that Taycan immediately bumps EA's cost up to $1,239.30 per month. If it pulls peak while say an ID.4 is charging as well and the peak rate observed for the month ends up being say... 400 kw it's $1836/kw.

Assuming absolutely no other costs, that station would have to have provide 8,307 kwh for the month just to break even at $0.31/hr. Assuming an average charging session is about 30 kwh, that's 276 charging sessions in a month, or 10 per day.

This obviously doesn't account for their actual overhead costs or capital and maintenance costs for the station. If the station costs say... $100k to install and you distribute that over... 5 years(?). What do we "feel" like is a fair markup to account for those costs? $0.1/kwh? $0.2/kwh? At $0.15/kwh that would be something like 22,222 charging sessions at a 30kwh average (assuming I did my math right). Which works out to about 12 sessions per day.

So if you assume a session costs $100k to install, and averages about 12 30kwh chargers per day that and you want to recoup the install costs within 5 years, then they'd be breaking even at $0.31+$0.15= $0.46/kwh if a single Taycan is the cause of the peak demand per month in VA.

There are some tools EA has developed to try and manage those cost and the demand fees, but I think a simple example like this works well to show how difficult it is to theoretically make any profit on these stations.
 

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Let's not forget how EA started and who owns them - VW due to the diesel scandal. And in a few years their obligation under court agreement goes away...

edit: VW was trying to get an additional investor back in July 21

Dzm
I thought I had heard that VW had already sold their stake in EA.
Maybe with more EVs, the profits will come but you can tell by the general poor maintenance, that they aren’t getting a lot of upkeep.
 
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dzmconstr

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It's not apples to apples because they need to amortize the 6-figure cost of the charger and its installation by marking up a 15-cent product. And that's before overhead and actual profits. Road trips aren't necessarily cheaper, but since you get most of your energy at home when you're vehicle isn't in use, most drivers will still come out well ahead -- especially if gas prices keep moving up.
You point has nothing to do with the cost EA charges compared to a gas station. How much do you think it costs to build and maintain a gas station? Certainly more than 6 figures!! Don't you think they have to amortize the costs? Don't you think their costs to operate far exceed an unmanned electrical supply station? Tesla in VA charges about $0.30/kWh...so Yes EA is price gouging which was the point of this discussion at $0.42/kWh...if you're a member, it's on parity with competition.
Dzm
 

dzmconstr

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Right. So people just assume EA is trying to make a bunch of money because they think EA pays a similar electrical rate as a residential customer. In many areas of the Country they're subject to large demand fees.
Never said ^. In fact I said it's NOT apples to apples. I highlighted residential to show what actual costs are closer to for production and distribution of electricity in VA. What is apples to apples is EA @ 0.42/kWh to Tesla at $0.30/kWh...so yes a 30% price higher than Tesla, who pays the same fee structure you yourself just highlighted...is as far as I'm concerened...high.

That's the original supposition of this sub thread..." What makes you think EA is price gouging? "
 

dzmconstr

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Sorry for de-railing your thread about the Cascade trip.
Dzm
 

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So in VA residential rates are $0.12/kWh. EA rates are $0.43/kWh or as a member $.31/kWh. I know that's not apples to apples as EA does not pay residential rates, but at over 3x residential rates, that's a little steep.

For ICE, average gas station owner gross is $0.10-0.15/gal of gas sold....that's before expenses. Yet right now everyone is screaming gas stations are gouging on prices...too funny.

Let's not forget how EA started and who owns them - VW due to the diesel scandal. And in a few years their obligation under court agreement goes away...

Dzm
Gas stations make their $ from snacks, not gas. Why DCFC stations don't at least have vending machines (or taco trucks?) is beyond me. I think there's a huge opportunity for a fast food chain or grocery store to commit to DCFC at all their locations. Can you imagine if finding charging were as simple as hitting an In n Out?
 

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dzmconstr

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Gas stations make their $ from snacks, not gas. Why DCFC stations don't at least have vending machines (or taco trucks?) is beyond me. I think there's a huge opportunity for a fast food chain or grocery store to commit to DCFC at all their locations. Can you imagine if finding charging were as simple as hitting an In n Out?
So Tesla has a contract with WaWa - I don't think you CA folks know WaWa - but man it's nice here on the East Coast for highway travel. You just pull in, use the facilities, grab some food, wash the windows and head out in 20 mins.

As an adventure vehicle who could Rivian partner with for the same ?? I'm sure they're working on something, but to be off the beaten path means it won't be someone who relies on pennies on the dollar return ie 7/11 or WaWa or I/O...
Dzm
 

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You point has nothing to do with the cost EA charges compared to a gas station. How much do you think it costs to build and maintain a gas station? Certainly more than 6 figures!! Don't you think they have to amortize the costs? Don't you think their costs to operate far exceed an unmanned electrical supply station? Tesla in VA charges about $0.30/kWh...so Yes EA is price gouging which was the point of this discussion at $0.42/kWh...if you're a member, it's on parity with competition.
Dzm
Gas stations can amortize their costs over a LOT more customers + transactions.

EVSE's will get there.... But it's going to take years.
 
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timesinks

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Never said ^. In fact I said it's NOT apples to apples. I highlighted residential to show what actual costs are closer to for production and distribution of electricity in VA. What is apples to apples is EA @ 0.42/kWh to Tesla at $0.30/kWh...so yes a 30% price higher than Tesla, who pays the same fee structure you yourself just highlighted...is as far as I'm concerened...high.

That's the original supposition of this sub thread..." What makes you think EA is price gouging? "
Tesla is running their network as a loss-leader to sell more cars. They're the Costco gas of EV charging. EA isn't being propped up by a single manufacturer. They're expected to build a profitable business on their own.
 

SeaGeo

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Never said ^. In fact I said it's NOT apples to apples. I highlighted residential to show what actual costs are closer to for production and distribution of electricity in VA. What is apples to apples is EA @ 0.42/kWh to Tesla at $0.30/kWh...so yes a 30% price higher than Tesla, who pays the same fee structure you yourself just highlighted...is as far as I'm concerned...high.

That's the original supposition of this sub thread..." What makes you think EA is price gouging? "
Right, I wasn't assuming *you* were. Just that people do.

Tesla seems to have sunk at least part of the costs of their network into the cost of the cars as well (that's my best guess) to support lower charging fees. And I'd guess they have some lower capital costs as well. Don't forget that Elon/Tesla has hinted at higher costs for non-tesla vehicles if they ever open it up in the U.S.

If you compare the EA cost to other DCFC providers that aren't subsidized by a manufacturer I think the comparison becomes cleaner. EVGO charges 0.30/kWh but the stations I see in VA are almost all 50kW stations with 2 plugs, and then a couple of stations with a pair of 200kw chargers. So EVGO is able to manage likely cost average down their demand fees compared to EA stations with 6 plugs that have two 350kw chargers there. Plus the lower powered chargers are less expensive to install generally. EVGO has also been significantly slower to expand and has focused on installing chargers in urban areas where demand is likely more regular and higher.

At the end of the day, my point is mostly that I haven't seen anything suggesting EA is raking in tons of money. It's pretty easy to walk into costs similar or higher than what they are charging. The stations just cost more than people think they do.
 

DuckTruck

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Gas stations make their $ from snacks, not gas. Why DCFC stations don't at least have vending machines (or taco trucks?) is beyond me. I think there's a huge opportunity for a fast food chain or grocery store to commit to DCFC at all their locations. Can you imagine if finding charging were as simple as hitting an In n Out?
Along that same line, and regardless of how people feel about Walmart, they sure figured it out.

I hadn't been in a Walmart for a long time, until a little over a week ago, when we held our first Portland area Rivian get-together. I ended up going into their store while charging my R1T at the EA station out front, near our gathering place. Knowing I had at least 20 minutes to kill while charging, I went in and loaded up on cleaning supplies and other goodies for my truck. Likely would never have stepped into that store if not for EA being there.

Someone in Bentonville, Arkansas, made a good call!

@timesinks, Thanks for the story of your Cascade trek and please pardon my charging diversion. I'm looking forward to exploring that area, including Leavenworth, over the Summer. Your information is quite helpful!

Enjoy all your Adventures going forward!
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